Guillermo del Toro - Nightmare Alley: "The love of cinema saved me several times"
Is there a life after the triple Lion d'Or/Oscar for the best film/Oscar for best director?Five years after the form of water, the filmmaker gives his answer: Nightmare Alley, a fatal fable on the artist's moral position and the dizziness of success.
This interview originally published in number 525 first, still available in newsstands and on our online store.
Commandez le numéro 525 de PremièreFirst: Nightmare Alley is your first film since the Oscars and the Golden Lion of the Water Form, which made you change your dimension.Have you felt free of weight or put under pressure?
Guillermo Del Toro: I had already had my share of recognition and validation at the time of the Pan [2006] labyrinth and I had chained with Hellboy 2!Because it had fun, but also because stretching, the film focused on questions that were very personal to me.When Liz [Selma Blair] asks Hellboy "Do you need love around the world or mine is enough for you?"", It was exactly the type of question that came to me at the time.In a similar way, the shape of the water is born from my reflection on what love represents for me and Nightmare Alley is my way of examining where we are as a species, while the black cloudspile up above our heads.That has nothing to do with reconstruction or period film, it's here and now.The scrambled border between truth and lies, this terrible trap that closes on us.As Pete [David Strathairn] says, "When a man believes in his own lies, he becomes blind".I wanted to make a film on where I was in my life and the film turned out to be extremely dark.
Stanton (Bradley Cooper) may be a false medium, he knows how to "read" people: their aspirations, their faults, their dreams, their lies, and play on it by telling them what they want to hear.In this terms, the film is a parable on the profession of filmmaker.
The big difference between Stanton and me, you or the other characters in the film is that most of the time, we question ourselves and act in consciousness, not under the influence of a devouring drive orAn instinct that goes beyond us.Stanton is different.He is like a reminder of a drift that watches all storyteller, this temptation to believe in your own things, to stick to what has proven itself in the hope of continuing to climb the ladder of success.A spiral which, if we take care, can become uncontrollable.Stanton has at least three occasions by happy ending during the film, possibilities of happiness or a form of satisfaction.But he always makes another choice.We very consciously worked on this with Kim Morgan by writing the script.In Mi-Film, the character leaves the fun fair with Molly [Rooney Mara], we must have an ideal ending feeling, "and they lived happy and had a lot of children".They go away, the camera rises, there is this superb sky, everything is fine, but cut!We find him two years later, and he is angry.He doesn't really like him anymore, constantly, criticism constantly...Because it is his nature to be dissatisfied, engaged in an ascending spiral which is only a flight forward.As a filmmaker or artist, this is one thing we have to confront each other.I have a friendly relationship with David Cronenberg.I always admired him a lot for the way he went from his organic horror films to Crash or History of Violence.I find it very telling.The two forms of fiction that I love the most, the police film and the horror, have a lot in common, in particular to be parables, to function according to the visual codes of expressionism and to show you the aspectsless brilliant from human nature.I made a lot of films where the real monsters were not those who were believed, but men.There, there are no more "creatures", we dive direct into the human psyche.
This is the difference between the film noir and the horror film.The protagonist does not need a devil to pass a pact.The tragic pact, he signs it with himself...
It is very true.In the film Noir, there are always these pivotal moments when the characters make the wrong choice over and over again and again.They are their own devil.This is the reason why we use the mirrors at this point in the film, with the Bateleur of the fair who says "The mirror will tell you who you are and who you might become".The fate of the character is none other than his own reflection.There is no real magic, we are beyond reading cards or signs.The character is his own curse.
The production was stopped in the middle of the shooting, due to the pandemic.
I believe in the flow of life.And that as an artist, you must learn to follow him, because there is no possible art if you oppose him.If you accompany this current, on the other hand, things that seem to be obstacles turn into opportunities.For Nightmare Alley, we first shot the second part, the time of film that takes place in the city.Fully.And then the pandemic forced us to stop nine months.Nine months !I had time to mount this whole part, to think, to rewrite the script with Kim Morgan, to establish with even more precision where we wanted to be at the end of the first part, which heWe had to do.So, only we had the opportunity to turn it.But thanks to all this, with Bradley, we knew exactly the emotional place where we wanted to lead our character.It was fabulous, magical, very powerful.
What is incredible is that this structure in two successive films, distinct from any point of view, is the very basis of the project!
And even the deep reason why I wanted to make this film!This famous rocking point, this "happy ending" halfway through that I was telling you about, it was the key point.I am 57 years old, and I very naturally measure the meaning of the word "enough".I know that we can be in harmony with your present at a moment T, provided I accept to live it fully and put your feet on firm land.But if we don't do it, we will never have "enough"...Most artists have a crack, something broken that goes back to childhood, and can lead them to a form of imbalance, insatiability.The character of Stanton, I want us to understand it, but I do not forget how dangerous it is.
The whole film, we remain on the border of identification.We are with him, but not quite anyway.
To achieve this, we have always filmed it from behind.We see the back of his head, we don't know what he thinks, but he thinks something, and that something is disturbing.The other technique is this wonderful expressionist gimmick which consists in always leaving it a little in the shadows.When editing, we made sure that he said his very first dialogue in the dark.We hear his voice but we don't see his face at that time.All this is very aware of the work to make it elusive.We leave it in the shadows.We create an aura of mystery or doubt around him, accentuated by his very different attitudes in his relationships with each of the other characters.He is charming with Molly, seducer with Zeena [Toni Colette], elegant in the city, playing hard with Lilith [Cate Blanchett]...But who is this guy?And in the end, all its masks end up falling.
What is fascinating is that the spectator still identifies with the character, despite the mistrust that you establish.It’s an incredibly subtle balance.
Very, very subtle, yes.We start the film with a very powerful, indelible image.This guy drags a corpse on the ground, throws him into a hole and sets fire to it.You don't know what's going on, but you want to know.At least, this is the bet we make.This image, you keep it with you throughout the film.And the answers will only come little by little.And when I film it, I suck so that the camera is always in motion and slightly from below, like a child who tries to see better, a fascinated child who follows him and tries to identify him.
You would refer to expressionism, omnipresent: the presence of the decor, the impact of the climate, the snow, the rain, the wind, the light...Where is the limit between what comes from the atmosphere and what is pure imaging?
Both mingle and feed each other.In this film, everything looks like a dream, a succession or a tangle of dreams.Stan spends his time to wake up in different realities.He falls asleep on the bus, wakes up near the fun fair;He wakes up in the city, who has become a medium in a cabaret;Later he wakes up in the middle of nowhere, bearded, in a homeless camp...It’s like he spent his time waking up from his previous nightmare.To the magnificent skies of the fairground is opposed the almost total absence of exteriors in the city part.Everything is in contrast, the rupture.Why did we build the fair for real rather than shooting in the studio?So that the tents, the capitals breathe.Vrooooom, the wind rushes under them, they breathe and live like a uterus, like a heart that.But in town, nothing moves, these are only large inert walls and severe perspectives, glass, steel.It must be exaggerated, according to a dreamlike logic, but by maintaining a certain level of reality.Design production work throughout the fairground has been particularly difficult.The colors and materials had to be connected to the reality of the time.On this, we cannot be clever, it must look a little ugly, worn.Ditto for the photo.We could have made a photo of "golden" time but we chose a harder, more "closed" image, the large tents block the sun, even if we see the sky.And in town, there is no sky, but buildings instead.In this terms, this is one of the most complex films we made, with my team.For me, the only time Stan is really awake is the very end.
Is the film of circus or fun fair, is it a sub-genre for you?
Two sub-genres, I would say...These are two very different phenomena of each other.The circus represents another layer of society, almost the nobility compared to the fun fair, which is a quasi -underground company.The circus is a small family.The fair is full of humanity and shadows, populated by uncompromising people, sought -after people, people living on the border of illegality, a very closed society, very opaque.Between fairgrounds, they have a code, it is a lifestyle.Clem [Willem Dafoe] sees Stan at the start, he "recognizes" it.He knows he fled something at first glance.
Nightmare Alley : Guillermo del Toro signe une fable noire envoûtante [critique]To return to our first question, your name is now a signature and capital.It is a key that opens the doors but which can also imprison you in a niche.We feel it in communication around the film, which promises "Del Toro" but must insist on the fact that it is not a fantastic film.
I experienced the same thing for the first time on Crimson Peak [2015].I spent my time repeating in an interview that it was a Gothic romance but nothing was doing, everyone continued to enter the room hoping to see a horror film ... So yes, there isA signature but you are right, she must help me not lock it.This is what I looked for all my life.My signature is first of all to be able to turn both the Echin of the Devil [2001] and Pacific Rim [2013], a whole latitude to flourish and develop rather than to curl up on its recipesproven, its reflexes or its facilities.Here, I had to do Nightmare Alley, I was there in my life and in my career.People will come there while believing to see monsters or a fantastic film, so we have to try to frame the thing, even if we know that we will not escape it.
Except that this is, after the shape of the water, your brand and your signature go far beyond these preconceived ideas.And any film black that he is, Nightmare Alley proves that there is a Del Toro style, identifiable among all, which transcends genres.So you shouldn't have to worry about it.
Oh I'm not careful!I don't care...But I understand the question you raise.All my life, I was too "arty" for certain parts of pop culture and too "pop culture" for part of the world of art or official culture.I was outside the mold in both cases.But little by little, on both sides, people came out of the mold in turn and joined me outside, where we look at all this from the window.I really like this position.It's been thirty years that I have been there and I will continue, until my last breath.
What about your interview book project with Michael Mann and George Miller, whom you mentioned in a previous interview three years ago?
I didn't have time to devote myself.And this, for two reasons: starting the film, I said to myself "this one, it should not be too hard to do".Hey hey, it makes me laugh to think about it, when it is probably the most complicated film I have ever made...I had clearly underestimated the magnitude of the task.And on that, the pandemic has jostled everything.But I always intend to make these books because I love it to exchange everything with other directors.Reflect with them about the power of images, especially with these two types, do you imagine?The idea is not abandoned.During confinement, I had a kind of taste.I spent my time exchanging SMS with one or the other.I wrote to Miller: "Say, I just saw Duel de Spielberg, there are two plans that made me think of Mad Max.Did you in mind?"And he replied:" Absolutely."Then I wrote to the Coen:" By the way, you had Mad Max II in mind when you turn Arizona Jr?" - " Downright!"I did a lot of little personal interviews like that by text.You know, the love of cinema literally saved my life several times.This intimate relationship with images is a very deep and moving concept for me.And I would like to contribute to what we approach the work of contemporary masters with the same reverence and the same rigor as that of the great classics, like Hitchcock/Truffaut.That they have the platform to put their own words on the masterful work they have bequeathed us.
Nightmare Alley.By Guillermo del Toro.With Bradley Cooper, Cate Blanchett, Toni Collette.Duration: 2h31.Released January 19, 2022
Interview by Guillaume Bonnet
